Author Topic: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy  (Read 5614 times)

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Offline vnv727

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Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« on: December 30, 2009, 05:34:27 PM »
Hi all,

 I am just hoping someone can point me in the direction for a good website,blog, etc. with a point by point debunking(it seems to me exceedingly likely that the conspiracy angle is total nonsense) of the whole false flag pearl harbor business.

There are so many good resources for showing the claims of the truthers to be nonsense, was hoping for some similar sites about Pearl Harbor.

If I wasn't clear by what I mean by "Pearl Harbor" I mean that we(the US) had a hand in planning or knowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor and let it happen.

Thanks a lot guys.

Offline JoelWhy

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 05:57:55 PM »
I was just listening to an interview on NPR yesterday with Alan Brinkley, an author who wrote a biography on FDR.  Someone called to ask about the possibility that FDR knew of the pending attack and scaled back the defenses.

Now, Brinkley is clearly biased in favor of FDR, but he wasn't a total apologist for him.  According to him, FDR did know that his actions increased the likelihood that Japan would attack.  And, he can arguable be criticized for not  increasing defenses at Pearl Harbor.  But, Brinkley asserts that the vast majority of historians would agree there is almost no evidence to support the claim that he knew ahead of time of the attack, and that he absolutely did not scale back defenses before the attack.

Sorry, can't direct you to a website going point by point, but I'm sure some exist.  As for evidence of a false flag conspiracy, I've got to figure that, like the 9/11 conspiracy nuts, anyone who would believe this claim isn't going to be convinced otherwise by something as worthless as "evidence" or "facts".  ;)
"I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

Offline David E.

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 06:47:01 PM »
This was one of the few Con Theories I believed in before I got deeply into Skepticism.  It seemed somehow very plausible that FDR needed something to happen to stir up the Nation. 
People are so used to criticizing religion in whispers, that a normal voice, sounds like a shout.

Offline JoelWhy

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 06:48:54 PM »
This was one of the few Con Theories I believed in before I got deeply into Skepticism.  It seemed somehow very plausible that FDR needed something to happen to stir up the Nation.

What, you didn't buy into the far more plausible Area 51 cover up?!  ;)

Seriously, I thought JFK was a CT, but mainly because I thought pretty much everyone thought that.  I never cared much about it, though.
"I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

Offline David E.

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 09:59:38 PM »
It just seemed plausible.  Europe was done, England would have fallen, and with no Western Front, Russia could have been won, especially with Japan's help. 
People are so used to criticizing religion in whispers, that a normal voice, sounds like a shout.

Offline Joe B

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 10:11:07 PM »
Russia could have been won, especially with Japan's help.

One big thing I got from Hardcore History on the Eastern Front was what a huge turning point Japan choosing to gun for the Pacific and U.S. instead of putting Russia into a two front war was. The initial Nazi push was turned back at Moscow by fresh troops that had been pulled from Siberia after it became clear that Japan wasn't going to push at the Soviets from the East.
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Offline Beams

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 09:27:37 AM »
Here's one page that goes into various myths about Pearl Harbor: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/index.html. The format is less than great (white text on a black background), but they do link to original documents.

If you really want to learn about Pearl Harbor, read Gordon W. Prange's At Dawn We Slept. It's a very thorough account of the attack, including actions taken by the Japanese and the U.S. prior to the attack. Prange does spend some time addressing and debunking the conspiracy theories.
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Offline vnv727

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 04:14:34 PM »
Thanks for the sources :)

I'd still appreciate any more input anyone might have, especially if they are online.




Offline Plasmodium vivax

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 07:02:53 PM »
I was arguing over this issue like, a year ago, although most of my points were based on incredulity--I mean, really, it's not like you need a successful Japanese attack to justify war.

If you ever get stuck on some point, I'm sure we will help hunt down information for it.
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Offline David E.

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 07:11:56 PM »
Russia could have been won, especially with Japan's help.

One big thing I got from Hardcore History on the Eastern Front was what a huge turning point Japan choosing to gun for the Pacific and U.S. instead of putting Russia into a two front war was. The initial Nazi push was turned back at Moscow by fresh troops that had been pulled from Siberia after it became clear that Japan wasn't going to push at the Soviets from the East.

Yep.
People are so used to criticizing religion in whispers, that a normal voice, sounds like a shout.

Offline jawmo

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 08:32:16 PM »
Truth is we'll probably never know. There's no question the US was poking Japan with a very sharp stick, and certainly expected a retaliation of some sort. Negotiations were a nonstarter and known to be unacceptable to Japan.
Still, that's a long way from proof that Roosevelt knew Tojo was going to take out Pearl Harbor. It was the logical target, but in fact it was the only target. Knowing what we now know about FDR, he wasn't above such machinations -- his "keep out boys out of the war" campaign rhetoric was such a bother.
But again, what do we really know? The press was practically a liaison office of the White House and what would soon become the Pentagon. Information lost 70 years ago, or never gathered in the first place, is not found again.
I suggest a trip to the library to search back issues of Foreign Affairs (recent vintage). Any website is bound to be biased one way or the other.   
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Offline Chew

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 11:11:41 AM »
Truth is we'll probably never know. There's no question the US was poking Japan with a very sharp stick, and certainly expected a retaliation of some sort. Negotiations were a nonstarter and known to be unacceptable to Japan.
Still, that's a long way from proof that Roosevelt knew Tojo was going to take out Pearl Harbor. It was the logical target, but in fact it was the only target.

Huh? Pearl Harbor was the last target anybody thought would be attacked. War Plan Orange, the only plan for fighting a war against Japan, was made on the theory the Japanese would attack the Philippines and nowhere else. If, and it's a big if, Roosevelt allowed the Japanese to attack the U.S., he would most certainly have thought it would be the bases in the Philippines.
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Offline Jack R.

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 12:10:56 PM »
According to the diary entries of Henry Stimson, Roosevelt's Secretary of War, the administration was preparing for war, and knew that the Japanese had a prediliction for surprise attacks, but had no warning of any plans on Pearl Harbor or anywhere else.

]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792673,00.html]

Of course, any documentation that discredits a conspiracy theory is automatically considered to be part of the conspiracy.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 01:48:12 PM by Jack R. »
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Offline Zeno Izen

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 01:12:54 PM »
Pearl Harbor never happened.  It was filmed in a studio. 

Offline Beams

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Re: Point by point debunking for Pearl Harbor Conspiracy
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 03:07:10 PM »
Pearl Harbor never happened.  It was filmed in a studio.

Maybe if we could get LCROSS to come back to an earth orbit and take pictures of Pearl Harbor, it would convince you it happened. But, you'd probably insist the pictures had been doctored anyway....

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